The Elephant in the Cellar

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Rod Smith — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:49:44 GMT

Well, have visited Leroy and Jamet have a strong impression that both cellars are pretty transparent. So those are good examples. But again, don’t we want to know what’s going on behind the scenes? Weren’t we all redeemed by Toto when he pulled back the curtain to reveal the little man behind the Wizard?

Appropos Champagne, I feel that there is a strong transmission of terroir through many cuvees, partucularly from grower-producers (I would cite Pierre Peters, Selosse, and Milan among quite a few others). And Salon—magic stuff, indeed.

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Shayn Bjornholm — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:39:52 GMT

Ah...indeed, Champagne is probably not the greatest example given the inherent winemaker role. Though that is another topic altogether, argued on the pages of Thiese Selections and The New France very well already. So, let's substitute Leroy Musigny or Jamet Cote-Rotie. Point the same.

And no...I will never turn away from Salon. For, if it is "over manipulated," then I might have to accept it and continue to melt every time I get the chance to taste Mesnil-sur-Oger's Juice From Beyond.

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Rod Smith — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:12:17 GMT

Joe, you’re right on that overripeness is the main culprit right now. It’s purely fasion—just in the last scant decade—but there’s some doubt in my mind as to whether it will pass like most fashions or stick around like, for example, the “new” taste for dry wines that took hold in the 19th century. But I strongly disagree with your contention that great wines are accidents of nature, and that all other wine begs manipulation. Given a suitable climate, the right match of variety and location, and a little luck with the weather, a savvy winemaker anywhere ought to be able to make an excellent wine without excessive manipulations and additives.

And Shayn, I think we’re basically on the same page, but I do think knowing is very important. When I became convinced Bonds was juiced, I felt betrayed, and ashamed of the way I celebrated when he broke Ruth’s record—fraudulently, I believe. In fact, I’ve turned away from baseball because of steroids and hormones. But turn away from Salon? With Champagne, manipulation is pretty much the point w/Champagne, no? There’s a whole school of thought there, especially in the negociant houses, that’s pretty anti-terroir.

Thoughts?

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Shayn Bjornholm — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:59:59 GMT

"I would make me cringe to think that the 82 Salon I beyond is manipulated to the point of construction to recall what I tasted as a creamsicle without the sugar and not just that way because of their vineyards. It might not taste as good"

Wow..let's try that one again. (That's what ya get for typing while teaching a Level One for the Court!)

It would make me cringe to think that the 82 Salon I beyond enjoy was manipulated to the point of construction to taste (to me) like a creamsicle without sugar...and not just that way because of their vineyards. It might not taste as good.

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Shayn Bjornholm — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:27:29 GMT

In an effort to teach a group of international students in wine marketing for the OIV a week ago, I was asked about how I can define any area (Washington state in this case) as having "the t-word" or "there thereness" if it irrigates. Not surprisingly, the questioner was from the Old World - historically a large frowner upon the practice. And my answer was thus: unless the grape grows on its own in the middle of nowhere without any contact with human beings, then falls into a hole in the ground from a height needed to burst the skin and ferments from native yeast wafting on the wind, IT HAS BEEN MANIPULATED. A given.

The question, then, is what is acceptable to us? How is color different from sugar? If you utilize cultured yeast made specifically to work on certain levels of sugars with specific end product in mind, why can't you spin some alcohol out? At what point do we harm the initial essence of what nature gave us at the expense of what we think our customers want? And did nature really give it to us if we trained canes in ways that would happen naturally oh, 1 in a million times? Then did the many other things in the vineyard already mentioned?

It seems to me that the call for exactly what happens and exactly what the effect is would be great - but not on any label. Who, among even us, would really read it? I like the idea to ask yourself...if there are practices that go overboard, make your stand personally and professionally and move on. The market will then define itself.

Goofy thought on defining the line ofwhat manipulation goes too far so as to completely undo calling a bottle a "wine of place": that would be a cool study by some vit and eno program somewhere by simply taking the same wine grown the same way and put through the various winery manipulations listed above. Taste them blind. If they sense a turn in flavor profile which takes them away from what seems to be a "theme" or "terroir" or "thereness" in the wine overall, then, fine - call that "not in keeping with placeness-ness." And boycott unless they put on the label "from a place, but you wouldn't recognize it or like it, so we changed it to something else."

Point: what if we do get the information? What do we do then? I am with Rod - I am sick to my stomach over Manny and Papi winning the 04 World Series for my long suffering Sox "manipulated." But would I trade the feeling of beating the Yanks in The House That Ruth Built in Game 7 knowing what I know now? More importantly, would I have felt the same if I had known back then? I would make me cringe to think that the 82 Salon I beyond is manipulated to the point of construction to recall what I tasted as a creamsicle without the sugar and not just that way because of their vineyards. It might not taste as good.

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Joseph Spellman — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:00:17 GMT

Rod, if you're in the business of SELLING wine, as almost all contributors to this stimulating discussion are, the use-function of romance and mystery is minuscule. Of course we're cynical! Since very few wines worldwide conform to an absolutely non-manipulated (and therefore substandard) "natural" expression, we now need to adapt in ways Greg (brilliant!) and others here have detailed so clearly. I think he gets to the core problem:overripeness. That is what changes water use, yeast use, acidification, and some enzymes probably too. True "wines of place" are always barely ripe, and exist in the narrow margins where weather and water necessitate minimal yields and extreme selection. Think Urziger Wurzgarten, Cote Rotie, and Grand Cru Burgundy. They are accidents of nature, and notable for their understatement. The romance and mystery is that in some lucky vintages they are mindblowing. And yes, they all have manipulations of differing sorts. Sulfur to stop a fermentation, anyone? How about a bag or three of sugar in that tank? Got viognier to coferment with your chilly hilly syrah?

By comparison, West Coast US and South Australia and Mendoza are all deficient in the natural limitations of the production cycle. What was that you were about to say about Sonoma Coast?

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Rod Smith — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:03:13 GMT

You’re breaking my heart, Kevin. Abdicating the romance and mystery of wine in the face of cold, hard commerciality seems, well, cynical. But you’re right, there is some reasonable manipulation (see my teaching analogy, above) and then a line beyond which the wine’s true nature is compromised. I would say that playing fast and loose with the organoleptic profile, i.e. with acid, concentrate, enzymes, and tannin, is going too far. Any other opinions?

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Phillip Dunn — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:58:44 GMT

Well said Kevin. As a fellow Canlis sommelier I could not agree more with Gramercy being an easy sale. It is up to the sommelier or wine steward to sell these types of wines. It all about the approach you take to the guest. At times I personally enjoy a fat and extracted wine, they have there place. I call them "fireside wines". They are not to think about or have with food, just guzzle.

As far as manipulation goes. My big issue is the whole "mega grape" or some other additive to make wines more concentrated than they already are. Seems silly and basically cheating. I have surely tasted wines that seemed artificial. Kevin remember the Pinot we tasted recently? Interesting thread nonetheless.

BTW great info Greg. Thank You.

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Anonymous — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:27:27 GMT

Thanks Greg for the perspective check. I've personally long since divorced myself from the idea that wine is some ethereal product of the gods, given to man to express the essence of...whatever.

Yeah, it's extraordinarily important to us, and I think that truly great wines often show an unmistakable sense of place. But I've given up my romantic notion that my favorite wines must be culled as the product of a vintage and place, minimally handled by humans, happily displaying the vagaries of the vintage.

Seriously, once you've taken your first wine course; visited your first winery; taken your first business course; met your first winemaker; understood that winemakers are trying to actually make good wine and SELL wine... where's the line? Tell us: What's manipulating wine and what's not? You've got to draw a line somewhere; where should we start? No, really. Where?

To Master Harrington: I find your wines an easy sale, but you do have to know how to set people up for them. I often ask people whether they're looking for something fat and extracted, or for something with good concentration that's elegant and polished, with some old-world complexity, or something to that end. They end up in the latter camp most of the time. ;)

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Gramercy Cellars — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:27:14 GMT

Scott Labs is a GREAT reference for much of this information, especially when it comes to yeasts, enzymes and other additives. Their catalog is fantastic and very easy to read. I highly recommend requesting it and getting familiar with these products.

www.scottlab.com/.../downloads.asp

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Gramercy Cellars — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:20:08 GMT

Don;t small wine producers already have enough burden with having to get COLA label approval from the TTB and then state approval from most of the states? Having to go through more paperwork, more bureaucratic bs and more waste of label space is not necessary. We already see this with the current COLA system. This would be very time consuming and jjst another tax on an already heavily taxed system. Besides, there isn't a way to check for most of these additives.

Sommeliers need to start demanding that winemakers tell them what they are doing. Get educated. Read Understanding Wine Technology from David Bird. Or Peynaud. Then ask probing questions and decide if these are really the wines that you want on your list. And you need to ask these questions from ALL areas of the world, not just the new world. Then create sections on your wine list to showcase these wines. Get rid of scores in your retail stores. Preach that additive free wine is not always perfect, tat it has peaks and valleys that make it interesting. That would begin to start a movement.

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Christof Bauer — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:27:17 GMT

Anyone remember the MSG story? If you think it disappeared, read again. (that is the list of additives)

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Rod Smith — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:45:05 GMT

Why not?

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Cara Schwindt — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 04:01:25 GMT

In September I will go and work my third Burgundian harvest. Even the best producers add enzymes, tannins, sugar.....

I believe that it is our role as sommeliers to lead the guests to wines with beauty and life, not to over-manipulated fermented grape juice.

Greg, please don't change your style.

Should wines have their additives added to the label?

RE: The Elephant in the Cellar

Gramercy Cellars — Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:05:34 GMT

Sorry for all the typos. Looks like a second grader typed that. But I think I made the point I was trying to make.