Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

LGS — Wed, 05 Jun 2013 18:11:52 GMT

WOW! the Pfalz is my fav German region. I never knew it had so much Riesling under vine! Great read!

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Pascaline Lepeltier — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 22:57:55 GMT

great post, great thoughts and threads on the relation between soil structure and wine structure - (and I agree about the (under-estimated) importance of the mycorrhizal activity....)

I just would say i think the quality of acidity - tartric, citric, malic, etc. - has a good part to play in our perception (malic is for me the more intense, citric fresher, tartric harsher/more sour, acetic bitter and so on and so on... plus they all have a different impact on the pH) and i know that a certain type of acids - like the tartic - will develop more in certain soil/vintage - conditions than the malic for example... i am curious to know if in this study they analyzed the acidity with the titratable acidity or with a breakdown of the different acids...

just more food for the thoughts to enjoy even more to taste and drink wines :)

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Barrett Ludy — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:44:40 GMT

Matt, it seems that the Germans are also drawing a parallel between limestone being more concentrated in lower-lying areas. Wouldn't this fact alone contribute to the buffered acidity? It would make sense that Germans see limestone as an acid-buffering agent because, due to how it was formed, it tends to exist in areas of lower elevation. In Germany, these lower-lying areas would produce wines with comparatively lower acidity. Have the Germans done anything in the way of examining the mycorrhizal differences between limestone and, say, gneiss? As that's the other determining factor in cation exchange, I think that might help to cast the deciding vote.

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 19:21:25 GMT

Great article! Thank you

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Nichole Dishman — Tue, 26 Jun 2012 08:53:34 GMT

Matt, A great site! Thank you. There is good discussion of impacts from calcium rich soils in grape growing at winebusiness.com by Valerie Saxton. Curious about impacts of the primary rain times in the German growing regions being during vegetative growth re: calcium uptake greatest between budbreak and veraision, and highest with wet soils. Is it accurate that most rain in Chablis and Champagne is during dorment season? What about Calcium uptake via traditionally used rootstocks that differ between growing regions? Perhaps in one area soil impacts are primarily structural (allowing deep root growth, access to water, and cooling to preserve acid) vs those plus calcium uptake in a different growing region? Also interesting that calcium in grapes at harvest is primarily in the skins which makes sense with the German natural de-acidification through cold soak (as CaC03 can be used in wineries to de-acidify through addition pre-fermentation). I am still missing the connection between calcium and calcium carbonate and if having Ca necessitates having CaCO3 in must. Frustrating when curiosity in one field is stymied by lack of knowledge in another... But today was the first day of my wine quality control and analysis class (instructor a chemist) so I will try to get some input from her.

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Admin User — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:42:44 GMT

Nichole, scientific experiment is precisely what the germans are doing. And yes, I understand that there are other variables, but I am interested in the isolation of one, calcium carbonate. Check this out: www.terroir-hessen.de/.../start.htm

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Nichole Dishman — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:57:45 GMT

Matt, My thought is perhaps limestone (and other soil) does react in certain ways with certain cultivars, rootstocks, moisture content, seasonal growing patterns that might be more complicated that a direct correlation between acid and soil type. It seems that a lot of what grapegrowers/winemakers/sommeliers know is based on experience specific to a unique location with its own unique characteristics. Like much of wine study. how can we ever really "know" the answer without scientific experiment? - and how to create an effective scientific experiment with so many variables in play?

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Admin User — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 22:06:10 GMT

Barrett, I'm not sure I'm following you. Most French (and American) winemakers I have spoken with suggest that limestone actually enhances acid--or at least does nothing to lessen it. The Germans say just the opposite.

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Barrett Ludy — Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:20:39 GMT

Matt, isn't that exact belief the Kimmeridgean clay's claim to fame? All the ripeness of clay with the acid of limestone?

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Admin User — Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:22:21 GMT

Nichole, I'm not suggesting that grape and climate don't have a (greater) impact than soil on wine acidity. What I am interested in is, all other things being equal, what effect soil, and particularly calcareous soils, has on this acidity. Frankly, I'm stunned that Germans believe that limestone buffers acidity, and I'm surprised no one else seems that blown away by this conclusion. Does this not directly contradict pretty much everything you have ever heard?

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

James Lechner — Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:44:34 GMT

Tremendous. Bring a Germany Master Class to Seattle, please!

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Jeff Lindsay-Thorsen — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:25:34 GMT

Excellent read, thank you.

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Cosmin Marinescu — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:13:23 GMT

Great stuff Matt, thank you.

RE: Acid-Tripping in the Pfalz

Nichole Dishman — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:18:30 GMT

A great write up. Its true about wanting to find a difinative ANSWER to what aroma and acid characteristics relate to a specific soil. But why shouldn't grapes and climate play into that equation. Not much different than how a rootstock will have charcteristics different based on grafted vine, soil, drainage. I guess the fun is in the chasing an answer (and tasting wines as research). Curious if the sulphur from natural ferments exist to same degree for people to innoculate partially into ferment (where native yeasts are beginning to be overwhelmed by environmental challenges). Initial thought would be higher sulphur levels where have to add SO2 to must to prevent native ferment. Lots to consider. Thank you!